China Identification Help
I have attached three photos of a Noritake pattern I would like identified
One of these is of the backstamps that are on the pieces
As well as the pattern name, is it possible to find out when the set may have been made??
I hope the photos are satisfactory
I really appreciate your help
Thank you for contacting Replacements,
The information you requested is shown below
Pattern - N2897 - by Noritake
Description - Cream Band, Floral Sprays
They were unable to identify the pattern, and gave it this "book number"
A page has been created on the Replacements Web Site, and it can be seen by CLICKING HERE
The photo used is one of ours, and no prices have been listed
Thank you for your emails concerning our Noritake "Pembroke" dinner set
Now the news - we have been converted - to Noritake!!
We are not collectors!! - and by no means rich!!
But we look around Ebay a bit and every now and again Sharon will spot something she likes and we try to win the auction
For some time she has been saying - "I like some of this old Noritake"
So, after seeing The Collectors' Book on your site, we contacted Sue Ibbotson and bought a copy which is now on it's way to us
So we are gunna become experts!!
I do not want to become a "pain-in-the-butt", but Sharon has one other style in Noritake
Sharon's Mother lived in Adelaide, and she brought this back with her after her Mum died a few years back
I have photos of the trio and the backstamp, but did not want to send them to you until you gave the okay
I have no idea of the pattern name, and this is one of the things I would like your help with
The backstamp looks like the blue one in the 1900's section of your list which is marked "Registered 1908 - Variation 3"
If you give me the okay, I will send the photos on to you
Well, I better get ready to go out and buy another display cabinet for all this Noritake that Sharon is going to buy!!
Regards, and appreciate your contact
I am happy to recieve pics and see if I know the pattern
I spend a lot of time pattern ID'ing unnamed ones
And enjoy it ..particularly when I 'nail one'!!
So send away!!
I look forward to gettig the pics and will comment at length, I imagine!!
"I enjoy it ..particularly when I 'nail
one'..so send away"
I like that note above!!
The pics are attached
I can't give you too much detail - because I don't know too much!!
Sharon has three complete trios, and they came to her after the death of her Mother
As I mentioned in my last note, the backstamp looks like the blue one in the 1900's section of your list and is marked "Registered 1908 - Variation 3"
I thought it interesting that all three cups and the three plates are marked, but none of the saucers
So I will now leave it up to you, "Detective" - hope you can solve it!!
Unfortunately I could not identify this pattern!!
All I can tell you is its pretty old
I think 1920's-30's from memory
It is a pretty pattern
So sorry I could not ID it
I really appreciate the time you would have spent chasing this up for us - THANKS!!
It is probably one of those very rare patterns that is worth thousands of dollars!!
Well, that's our wish anyway!!
Have a nice day
'Identifying a Pattern'
Hi, and can anyone help in identifying this pattern, as per the attached photo
I have also included photos of the backstamps that are used on these trios, of which we have three
Any and all info on this pattern, name, date, etc would be appreciated!!
Thank you for your question re: 'Identifying a Pattern'
Settings such as Tea Sets, Dinner Sets which are known as 'Utility Ware' ie; wares which this particular backstamp (London Applied for 1905, Registered 1908 mark) did not (to the best of my knowledge) carry any of the following details:-
------------Nor did they bear a Pat Pending, Pat Applied For, Pat Number
------------And they did not have Registered, Trade Marks, or Copyright markings
The "London Blue 1905 Applied for Mark, and registered 1908", which your set/setting appears to have stamped on the base, is known to have been used on and off until the onset of the War in the Pacific, and also with several variations of it being used throughout this long time line
Understanding when a pattern, shape or style of porcelain was produced also helps you nail down as to when it was produced
Noritake, for example, spent many years in perfecting different techniques, such as the production of Fine Bone Porcelain which they achieved in 1933 when they patented the process for example
Also the successful production of the magic 8 inch or 20.5cm plate which resulted in completion of the 93 piece dinner set in 1914 after 20 years of bitter struggles with the pattern name Sedan
Like all good companies they were into research and development, and if you study your shapes and patterns and the function of these items you see either on eBay or elsewhere, you will notice that as you move into different time zones (generations) form and function changed as well
In relation to the name of a pattern, it was not a common practice in the early days, that is back in the early 1900s, to place a pattern name or a number on the base
In the USA for example, goods were sold via catalogue with drawings in them and merchants would order from the catalogue and the goods would arrive
In Australia and New Zealand however, samples were sent of the actual items and the wholesalers representative then took these to the merchants and orders were taken
Each Zone had it own way of taking orders
Sometimes a Merchant would give the salesman/representative a pattern for a special order and a price was negotiated and these goods were sold in a particular store
This was common in all Zones
A easy example is the pattern referred to as Azalea and Tree in the Meadow, sold by the Larkin Company in via their Catalogues
However patterns which did not have a name, and there are thousands of them produced, are now referred to as Mystery Patterns, that is, Patterns without a Name
Geoff, this is what you have - "A Mystery Pattern"
If you read such books by learned researchers such as Joan Van Pattern, Wojcechowski, Donahue, Murphy, Fisher, Brewer, Replacements "Jewel of the Orient" and Alden, you will find that they often refer to such patterns as Mystery Patterns
Designated Pattern Names for Identification Purposes
In order to make life a little easier for collectors, early Authors such as Joan Van Pattern, Alden and others began assigning either a number, a name and in some cases both, thus providing collectors with a common point of reference to work from
Collectors could then consult with each other about patterns they had
As a result, this has made collecting some patterns a lot easier
It is also not uncommon practice for individual collectors of a pattern themselves to give a pattern a name, especially if it does not have one on the back to identify it, or if no one has given it a name to date
This for example was the case when I wrote the Collector book, Noritake for Australia and New Zealand
In Australia and New Zealand for example, many patterns we have here with the AU1931, AU 1933, AUNZ 1933, J Design Mark have no pattern name what so ever or number
Thus making identification extremely difficult
Whilst these goods when sold here (AUAN) originally would have been given a number by the wholesaler, such records have been lost or the reference information is not available for Pattern Identification purposes
Fortunately some collectors who contributed to the book in the form of photographs were kind enough to provide names which they assigned a particular pattern they were collecting
Since these people were already collecting these patterns and were comfortable with the names they had assigned the pattern/s, and in addition were also consulting with other Collectors about these pattern/s, it was only natural that I honour their wishes
Hence this is how many of the patterns collectors of AU and AUNZ marked piece were named
Really, why try and reinvent a new name for something that collectors had assigned a name to and were comfortable with?
It is clearly obvious as time progresss and more patterns are uncovered, new names will be given to AU and AUNZ marked pieces
With the establishment of the NCFAUNZ here in Australia and New Zealand, the task of discovering, naming, recording new patterns, along with the shapes that are available, has become a very important mission
In doing so, we are re-building long lost information and putting back together the jigsaw puzzle of what was available in a particular pattern/series
What we are doing and have done, is certainly making life much easier for all concerned
Examples include Castle on the Mount, Hounds and Huntsman, Merchant of Venice (Gondola Scene), Man in the Field, Blossie, Isabeau Rose, Hydrandrea Buttercup, Nasturtiums, Carnations, and so on
Why some pieces or sets were Unmarked
This part of your question relates to a very complicated period in time for the world
The following is from my research I did whilst writing the book "Noritake for Australia and New Zealand"
As a result of doing some background research, I was able to put bits and pieces together and find old company records about china importers and wholesalers
This is how I came across RM Hall Pty Ltd and AJ Chown Limited
It was not an uncommon practice for makers of Imported Goods irrespective of where in the world this was, especially in the early 1900s, not to mark their goods with either a name or even a country of origin
There are many reasons why this happened
Below are two examples of some information I found whilst researching for the book that I would like to share with you
In some cases products may have been marked or unmarked depending on what they were and what was their intended final port or point of destination
Obviously there are other reasons I could speculate on, however I am sure that would open a can of worms
Goods which carried a backmark incurred a higher
import levy especially if the goods were marked with a Country
of Origin, especially if the point of origin country was
not part of the Sterling Zone (Part of the British Empire)
As a result, some manufacturers may not have marked their goods intentionally so that they could possibly avoid having to have a higher duty being paid on their goods, or there may have been the possibly that the manufacturer or importer was trying to evade Anti - Dumping Laws
The practice of Dumping refers to goods, which were imported and then sold below the "normal value" of the goods
This practice resulted in Australia and others developing Anti Dumping legislation in the early 1901s to 1920s
In other cases imported goods may have found
their way into a Sterling Zone port which were known for not
carrying out careful inspections for unmarked country of
origin of shipments
In those cases these unmarked goods may have been placed on a cargo/passenger vessel and simply forwarded as part of a larger shipment to another destination with different paper work
If this had of been the case for goods destined for the Australian market for example, such goods would have had an ad valorem (import duty) of only 15% to 20% depending on the type of goods being imported
On the other hand, if these goods came directly from Japan, the duty payable was 45%
It is important to note that different parts (Zones Countries of Origin) of the world were required to pay different levels of import duties or added tariffs were in some cases applied etc
Whist this information is interesting, knowing
it gives you a greater insite into such aspect of imports
It is interesting to consider for example the production of goods, where were they produced? the stability of the region at the time? prejudices both social and political to a particular Zone at that time, and other general events such as pre war activities, the effects of wars, the great economic depression, protectionism, nationalism, the rise of communism and fascism and the list goes on
If you're into history, here is a little bit of information you might find of some interest
This website - "History Central - The 20th Century" - is a great resource for a quick reference to what was generally happening in the world during this time line
Starting at the time 1905 and ending at 1940:-
#01 - events leading up to the First World War in Europe
#02 - the emergence of communism, Chinese "Boxer Rebellion"
#03 - the events in Manchuria which lead to changes in Global power and a significant shift in power in the Pacific region
#04 - the great tariff wars between the Americans, Japanese, Sterling Zone and European countries which brought on policies of economic protectionism and nationalism
#05 - The instability caused by shortages in raw materials as a result of the monumental impact of the (so called) machine age, in particular the economic fall out because of Over Production" and the resulting dumping of unmarked goods - this resulted in the world wide Economic Depression of 1927 to 1939 and finally we move into the period of events that lead to the onset of World War Two
It is not until around 1956 that the world began actively free up restrictive trade practices with the end of what was called the Sterling Zone countries
With all that said and done, even today we still see forms of economic protectionism and nationalism demonstrated by such campaigns as BUY AUSTRALIAN MADE
Anyway, getting back to your set - What I do know for sure is this
Officially Noritake China was not sold via Noritake (aka) Nippon Toki Kaisha Limited (nor any official agency) in Australia until 1917/18 when Mr S Nakagami opened the Morimura Brothers Trading Company in Sydney, New South Wales, later changing the name to Noritake China Company
It is known that buyers from large department stores and local importers travelled to Japan (then known as Nippon) as well to England and other places to acquire products
It is known that NTK Limited had a Agency in London pre 1918/19 and it is very possible that some sample goods were purchased and imported into AU & NZ
One such importer and Wholesaler was Mr Raymond Hall, of RM Hall Pty Ltd., from Victoria who started up his small venue in 1914 before the start of WW1
Another possibility of how your set/setting in its original format may have come to Australia if it is a pre 1917/18 pattern/setting was possibly through a Japanese Trading Company operating out of Sydney, New South Wales
They may have imported some Noritake Product lines prior to the arrival of Mr Nakagami, and sold these goods from their wholesale business or small retail outlets
Your set or setting may have been one of these very early Mystery Patterns
We will never know
There are no records left from this period to confirm where they came from, neither here in Australia nor back in Japan
However from my own perspective and I may be wrong, but the shape of the cup suggests that it was a product line produced in great numbers over a long time line, possibly as early as 1908/10 through to as late as 1928
The style and design, Geoff, is commonly referred to as Art Nouveau
I say this because the pattern fits the classical style often defined by Art Nouveau, which was graceful in appearance, with details that included cursive lines often having interlaced patterns such as flowers, plants or both, animal motifs all which were inspired by the tranquillity and grace of nature
Geoff, if you look closely at the pattern, it shows several of the typical tell tail classical Art Nouveau characters, garlands of flowers, leaves bordered by cursive lines giving the pattern a graceful ornamental appearance
The colours in use were typical in the Art Nouveau period, such as the soft creams, blues, pinks and greens and the subtle application of gold accents
The Art Nouveau style is one I suppose you could say is ornamental ie; serving a purpose of decoration or beauty rather than usefulness, established to protest against the sterile realism or unnatural artefacts produced by industrialism and mechanisation
Lastly, the reference to the Number 4? mentioned on the backstamp photo
I believe what you think is a number is more likely a smudge from when the stamp was applied to the porcelain
I am positive it was not marked with a number
Hope this little bit of information has been of some assistance to you and other readers
I hope I have not missed anything
If you need further clarification I will try and help
All the best and thank you for sharing
Sincerely, Karry-leeanne Fisher
The Patron/Manager - MSNGROUPS - Noritake Collectors Forum
What can I say about that
Hi, Karry-leeanne Fisher
THANK YOU for taking the time to type out that very comprehensive reply
Every bit of info that I could possibly want!!
I did purchase your book, 'Noritake for Australia and New Zealand', back in October 2006
Going to start to use it more now as Sharon and I pick up more pieces of Noritake!!
We really appreciate your assistance
Geoff and Sharon Roneberg
Cairns North Queensland